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June 07, 2010

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soikki

Hi,

I hope that the V-Max LUN's will some day make the leap into 2010 and be expandaple without making it into a meta lun. I don't know if there are still other arrays where concatenation of lun's (meta) is required for expanding lun's on virtually provisioned pools.

Example: largest hyper size on v-max is ~256 GB. Anything beyond this, you have to make it a meta lun.

And also, as we all know, the lun has to be created as meta lun in the beginning. Otherwise it is not possible to expand it afterwards. So, on example a Windows host, all luns must be created as metaluns when shown to a host, in order to be able to expand it later. If I show 10 GB to a windows host, I must create ie. 2 x 5 GB meta lun. When later I want to expand it, I must add (concatenate) another meta members into it. How can this be, even with virtual provisioning? This is from the graves of storage management.

Imagine if it was like this: I want to provision 100 GB to a windows host. I give it a 100 GB lun. After 12 months, I want to expand it into a 500 GB lun. I just tell that expand the lun with 400 GB. No creating meta's, no fuss... And all this with de facto virtual (thin) provisioning or whatever you like to call it.

I sincerely hope that this is in the works, and at least noted as a critical thing to add...

Chuck Hollis

Hi Soikki

Why I can't argue with you that "boy, wouldn't it be nice to never have to plan ahead on storage configurations", I think that all arrays require some modicum of up-front planning in regards to how you expect to be using it.

Sure, we as vendors should eliminate as many of these "gotta think about it up-front" restrictions, but they're everywhere in every storage product.

Quick question -- why wouldn't you just use virtual provisioning everywhere?

I'm not sure you're 100% up-to-date with the product's capabilities -- some of what you say doesn't jive with my own understanding, so I'm going to ask someone to check and hopefully get back to you soon.

Thanks for the comment.

soikki

Hi Chuck,

and thanks for the SSD-speed reply :)

We are using virtual provisioning everywhere on v-max, but it still requires creating meta lun's. I guess this comes from the legacy code or something similar.

When you have hundreds of windows hosts using your storage array, how do you plan ahead which of the thousands of luns would require epanding later, and which would not? Let's stick to the subject.

This is not about planning ahead, this is about poor usability, and lack of understanding how large storage arrays should be managed, if this is not going to be changed soon. Or then just the technical issue.

Meta lun's cause herendous storage management overhead; thousands of hypers/luns to be managed vs. hundreds withoud having to have meta's.

We have been using pools and wide striping on enterprise high end storage arrays for 1,5 years now so I have some real-life experience on those (v-max for a shorter while but my technical statements here are valid)

Maybe blog is not the correct place for this conversation?

Chuck Hollis

Soikki

You've exceeded my detailed product knowledge. If you're interested, I can put you in touch with some of the product architects to (a) offer up your opinions in the hopes of improvement, and (b) check to make sure you are aware of all the capabilities in the product.

I'd encourage you to take me up on this, if possible. If I have been persuasive enough, please drop me a line at hollis (underscore) chuck (at) EMC (dot) com.

Thanks!

-- Chuck

Justin Warren

I look forward to the day when LUNs die and I can stop worrying about what makes them up, and can just ask for "some storage".

As you point out here, we're so far abstracted from what a Logical Unit Number originally was that I'm astounded we haven't killed them off in favour of something better suited to today's storage needs.

nate

I had a similar experience as Soikki on a win2k3 machine recently, but from the opposite angle..

My storage system doesn't have an issue expanding LUNs on the fly so when the DBA asked for more space for his SQL server I thought with thin provisioning why not just give him something big like 4TB(current LUN size was 1TB). So I expanded the LUN to 4TB. Presto! the OS decided it didn't want to see anything beyond I think the original 1TB size(memory is kind of foggy). It came down to the MBR on the volume needed to be GPT instead of the old DOS style. Which at the time I didn't think of of course just goes to show.. ended up creating a new LUN, making it GPT and migrating data to it and removing the old.

Ran into another similar issue with vSphere, in trying to map a 6TB LUN via raw device maps to a VM, vSphere wouldn't have it. So I had to split it up into 3x1.9TB LUNs and use LVM at the VM level to get the size I wanted.

Given I was using RDM I wasn't expecting any sort of storage limits, but I guess since VMware uses VMFS volumes to map the RDMs the limits of VMFS file size kicked in when I tried to go beyond 2TB.

So even if LUNs become infinitely flexible it seems the server end of things still need work to catch up.

the storage anarchist

Soikki (et al) -

We hear you - loud and clear.

Metas are an artifact of Syymetrix' roots as a mainframe CKD storage array. And we know that MANY of you don't like them.

Symmetrix Engineering has been systematically overhauling the internals of Enginuity and they have made tremendous progress over the lifetime of the DMX family and now VMAX.

In recent history (for example), the time to allocate and assign 1TB of Symmetrix storage to a single host has been reduced from about 1 hour in 2007 to less than 10 minutes in 2010 - and the team won't stop until storage can be ready for first I/O virtually as fast as you can switch from the "allocate storage" window to the "mount storage" window on your servers.

The transition to the use of Virtual Provisioning for ALL applications has begun, and features like Auto Provisioning and Fully Automated Storage Provisioning are foundational to the future of Symmetrix.

Simplifying everything to "give me X GB of class Y storage for server Z" is a vision that is now within our reach; everything that is getting in the way of reaching that target (e.g., Metas, config changes, etc.) will have to be addressed along the way.

Given the size of our installed base and the applications that depend upon Symmetrix, we pretty much have to perform this overhaul with precision; sort of like changing the engine of a race car without leaving the race track.

Oh, and FWIW, Nate is correct - not every file system or volume manager is readily able to take advantage of LUNs that can be expanded...in fact, this was added to Windows only within the past couple of years (Windows Server 2K8 and Win7 were the first Windows platform to support this, I believe).

Thanks for your patience and feedback - we ARE listening!

- Barry

soikki

Hi,

sorry I've been away for a while. I'm happy that you are listening... I recognize that your vision is correct and I hope that it will be reached soon. Maybe with the FAST2 -release which I hope is re-write of the code.

As for the comments of OS-versions supporting lun extension, pls do not underestimate the importance of this matter. Winodws 2003 accepts lun extension online, later Linux as well... AIX too... These probably account for majority of the SAN-connected servers out there.

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Chuck Hollis


  • Chuck Hollis
    VP -- Global Marketing CTO
    EMC Corporation

    Chuck has been with EMC for 16 years, most of them pretty good.

    He enjoys speaking to customer and industry audiences about a variety of technology topics, and -- of course -- enjoys blogging.

    He lives in Holliston, MA with his wife, three kids and three dogs when he's not travelling. Chuck enjoys piano, mountain biking, boating and skiing -- in that order.

    Warning: do not buy him a drink when there is a piano nearby.

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