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September 09, 2009

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soikki

"Some vendors point to the fact that they can reclaim storage if the application shrinks. Nice, but of questionable use, since it's the rare application indeed that gets significantly smaller, rather than significantly larger."

Chuck, this is a very, very nice feature indeed. You can really reclaim space with this feature:

-If lun's have been ie. accidentally full formatted by admin (saved 15 TB's one time)
-When hosts are migrated to the storage array, free space can be reclaimed (ie. host is using 300 GB / 1000 GB, you'll get back almost 700 GB)
-You can reclaim capacity even on hosts that are moved to virtualized VMWare platform

In real life, it is very usual that the usage % of filesystems is relatively small, and by moving these to virtualized platform and reclaiming space you can get some substantial capacity savings.

The low usage % of filesystems is very often caused by problematic capacity / application sizing.

Chuck Hollis

Soikki

You make some valid points -- any feature that helps recover from human error is a useful one -- that is, until we get to a world where we don't need storage admins formatting storage as you describe :-)

And, you're right, if you didn't start out with virtual provisioning, it'd be nice to reclaim space, but I'd argue that getting to virtual provisioning is far more easier with today's technology that lets you simply move LUNs around from old to new.

Your mileage may vary :-)

-- Chuck

Justin Warren

Another important piece that's missing here is search. If I've got a bunch of data with no metadata saying what it is, where it is becomes really important. How do I find the Jones report?

And when the system automatically moves the Jones report somewhere else because it hasn't changed in 6 months, how do I find it?

And when I've deleted it by accident and can't remember where it used to be (did I file it under 'J' for Jones, or 'P' for Prospects?) how do I get it back?

So who already does cloud, and storage, and search?

John D

"At the very least, storage vendors should offer at least file-level archiving as part of their storage stack. Bonus points awarded for having answers for email, SAP, SharePoint et. al."

A-freakin-men Chuck. Big time bonus points if they also include answers for legal hold, immutability, retention policy and destruction... all fully automated and policy based, of course! Cradle to grave storage and file systems - that's what I'm talking about (emphasis on grave).

Chuck Hollis

Hi Justin

Great question, let me clarify a bit.

First, all of the "moves" I'm talking about here are completely transparent to the user view. One example is file virtualization and archiving -- I still see my files where they've always been, it's just that they've been physically moved to cheaper storage.

Same with email archiving -- my personal email box has ~30,000 messages in it (most of them useless!), with the vast majority physically residing on purpose-built archival storage. It's completely transparent to me for the most part.

If you delete something by accident, again that's where either backup or archiving can help. Many environments choose to retain files/messages/etc. after they're deleted, others vigorously purge them to lower certain risks.

My rant on the importance of metadata was covered a few posts back: ("Of Files And Objects" and "The Future Doesn't Have A File System"), you might want to take a look.

Sadly, the only way to find things without metadata is to either (a) know where you put them, (b) inspect objects serially, or (c) use an external tool (like search) to generate external metadata.

Depending on how you frame the question on "who does cloud, and storage, and search", well, there are quite a few partial solutions in the market today, but no real good ones, IMHO.

At least, not yet :-)

-- Chuck

Chuck Hollis

John D:

"A-freakin-men" -- I guess I'm glad that we at EMC can walk that walk for many information domains, such as eDiscovery.

But, that being said, even with our robust set of current capabilities, sometimes I feel it's only a drop in a very large bucket.

Interesting effect I'd like you to consider, which is what I call "positive storage elasticity". Every time storage media costs drop considerably, people end up using far more than before, with the net effect that they spend more in total on storage than previously.

Put differently, I have yet to see an IT organization use a significant reduction in storage costs to actually spend less on storage. Inevitably, they end up using the savings to store far more than before.

Strange, but true.

Martin Glassborow

Chuck,
what tends to happen is people get lazier as the cost drops; arguably, they don't store more, often they simply store the same stuff again and again.

And even if they are storing more, how much of that more has any real value? Unfortunately it is hard to quantify Return on Information. I suspect there's some mileage to be had discussing such things and also on basic Information Hygiene.

Pete Steege

Agreed - all of these technologies play a role. There's not a single 'killer app' for more efficient storage.

No one need ask why EMC would want to make storage more efficient. History has shown that the more efficient ($/utilized TB)storage is, the more is needed.

Dave

Hi Chuck. In my experience price declines are historically steeper than 30% but maybe I'm understating the effects of software.

For my historical planning assumptions with customers I typically use 60%-65%+ TB growth (in normal times) and 37% annual $/TB declines-- driven off of Moore's Law. Since most software is tied to TB's I think the two track together pretty well, but I'm open to suggestions otherwise.

This creates an interesting anomaly in the storage world...that is to say, very high growth in TB but very low growth in revenue. In fact, by my estimates, for spending to increase even modestly, your 60% growth rate, which is higher (and more accurate imo) than I've heard many execs in the business use (including JT), will eek out an ever so slight spending growth.

Academic? Sure...but my point is having watched this space for many years, TB consumption is highly price elastic. If vendors find ways to reduce data consumption and lower costs...users will consume more. Kind of like closet space...there never seems to be too much. Bottom line is I think the industry is short-changing growth expectations.

Here's my math:
http://www.internetevolution.com/author.asp?section_id=654&doc_id=177503

nate

You guys over at EMC thought about buying Copan at all?

They seem to have some pretty impressive spin down technology and from what I read aren't doing so hot in this economy probably could get them for cheap. My company doesn't have anywhere near the need for those massive quantities of data but I'm sure you could find customers that have those kind of needs. Imagine what you could get integrating a DD box with a Copan array(896TB per rack with 1TB drives). That'd just be insane. I've never used Copan's stuff but thought about them when you mentioned spin down.

As for thin reclaiming I think it's a real useful feature to have. I can't count how many times I rebuilt file systems at my last company to reclaim space because something blew the volume up in size. Eventually I learned to just control things with LVM. And inefficient processes like MySQL's "optimize table", and even "alter table" are especially bad for thin provisioning as it causes MySQL to re-write the entire table out to a new set of file(s).

I have a NAS cluster right now, at the time the file system wasn't as thin friendly, the result is it's consuming 112TB of raw disk space for roughly 60TB of written data on the file system. Can't wait to reclaim that.. If I had thought about it more I would of just allocated less up front since the file system supports dynamic expansion, but schedules were tight and I didn't have time to think about "little" details like that!

I'm still waiting for the software to enable my thin reclamation in my array, should be here sometime soon, or so I'm told...

If you do buy Copan I want a cut for the idea!

Ranjit

Hi Chuck,

I think the point that we'll spend more on storage strengthens even further when you consider the supporting infrastructure. The ever rising energy costs hurts infrastructure costs. So the technologies you outline have the additional benefit of greening IT.

Ranjit

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Chuck Hollis


  • Chuck Hollis
    VP -- Global Marketing CTO
    EMC Corporation

    Chuck has been with EMC for 13 years, most of them pretty good.

    He enjoys speaking to customer and industry audiences about a variety of technology topics, and -- of course -- enjoys blogging.

    He lives in Holliston, MA with his wife, three kids and three dogs when he's not travelling. Chuck enjoys piano, mountain biking, boating and skiing -- in that order.

    Warning: do not buy him a drink when there is a piano nearby.

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