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August 23, 2007

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Pq65

So Chuck are you telling us that now that we've consolidated our physical servers shaved off server mgmt time, effort, resources and costs, that we need to re-allocate those resources to managing potentially 100s or even thousands of individual replication streams occuring at the VM level?

Why not manage replication streams based on Datastores by grouping VMs together with similar DR charecteristics and use array based replication?

and BTW...given that the splitter is now part of the Guest OS and the CPU and Memory are now virtualized and shared among multiple VMs, what are the performance repercussions when something like this gets turned on memory wise and CPU wise? Do I have to rely on DRS safely deploy something like this without impacting everything else on the same physical server?

Thanks


Chuck Hollis

Hi -- what I'm saying is that you'll have to give it some thought and make your choices.

Managing hundreds (or thousands) of individual logical replication streams using a single shared replication infrastrcuture is nothing new. As an example, this is a routine application of one of the array-based replication products, like EMC's SRDF.

Ditto with virtual machines using RecoverPoint and individual splitters -- as long as you have a single shared replication/mgmt infrastructure (as opposed to thousands of individual sessions WITHOUT common mgmt/infrastructure), no big deal.

As far as your suggestion of combining data stores of VMs with like replication characteristics, fine, anything is possible, but this means -- as an example -- they will have separate DRS and VMFS domains, and -- more importantly -- you'll never be able to recover a isolated VM without bringing back all their friends and neighbors first.

Having thought about this extensively, there's no arguing that ideally you'd be able to tag an individual VM with the replication characteristics you want, and not affect the others. Of course, you're welcome to live in a less-than-ideal world, as many of us do.

The splitter code running in the guest OS is nothing more than a simple shim. Memory use is a rounding error, and performance impact regarding the act of splitting is very difficult to measure, it's so small.

That's true in extended lab testing and real-world scaled-up production sites. There are issues, but it ain't those!

Thanks for commenting!

Pq65

Hi Chuck,

What I'm suggesting is grouping VMs according to replication requirements in VMFS LUNs and then replicate the LUN(s) from the array.

What I further believe is...the heck with iSCSI and FC...NFS's the way to with VMware and I can replicate EVERYTHING and be able to recover individual VMs or groups of them residing in an NFS datastore. And I can backup whole VMs or files inside VMs...The latter by deplying a loopback mount on a Linux box.

Plus NFS, for ESX, performs better than FC and iSCSI. Did some testing on identical configs (iSCSI/FC/NFS) and I was surprised to find out that NFS indeed poduced better IOPs, better latency and better TPUT. I didn't believe the results initially and re-run the tests and got the same result. Then I realize "hey wait a minute...I have no VMFS, and i'm using completely driver stacks...

I think NFS is the way to go with VMware and like solutions for a lot of reasons, like the added SAN complexity server virtualization introduces, fewer touch points with NFS, plus the fact that it can eleviate the tremendously low storage capacity utilization rates introduced by server virtualization.

I hear a lot of people talk about the benefits of server virtualization but no one is talking about the ramification server virtualization has to storage.

BTW...A single replication mgmt console is a requirement if you are managing thousands replication relationships but at the end of the day you *still* have to manage these relationships.

Frankly, whether you manage replication relationships or juggling balls in a circus, fewer's always easier...

Chuck Hollis

Your suggestion about using VMFS domains for like-minded replication requirements is good -- up to a point.

When I speak of replication, I'm also talking about local replication, e.g. snaps et. al.

Not being able to snap (or restore) individual VMs I think would bother many people.

I agree with you on the attractivness of NAS in VMFS environments. In fact, I raised a few eyebrows last year when I wrote a post that speculated that, indeed, NAS might be a better choice for VMware for many of the reasons you mentioned.

I think the performance is more than adequate, files are easier to manage than LUNs, and (if you're not using VMFS) there are a bunch of cool tricks you can use to manage, replicate, archive, etc. VM images that are in fact files.

This view of NAS may not 100% jive with VMware's view of the world, so it will be very interesting to see how this plays out.

Thanks for the informative comment!

Chris M Evans

Chuck

Sounds to me like the original problem was in the way VMware handled (or more accurately didn't handle) external disk (i.e. not within the server running VMware). I think that the origin of VMware as a PC based product for virtualisation meant that it wasn't designed with Enterprise-class architectures in mind. For example, why support such as small number of LUNs on an ESX Server (plus the various other parameters that need to be set if you use LUN numbers outside the range VMware recognises).

Don't get me wrong, VMware is a good product, but the issue with storage support for LUN creation, replication, snapshots, backups, etc, is a VMWare issue *not* everyone else's problem as these issues I've just listed already have mature solutions that solve them.

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Chuck Hollis


  • Chuck Hollis
    VP -- Global Marketing CTO
    EMC Corporation

    Chuck has been with EMC for 13 years, most of them pretty good.

    He enjoys speaking to customer and industry audiences about a variety of technology topics, and -- of course -- enjoys blogging.

    He lives in Holliston, MA with his wife, three kids and three dogs when he's not travelling. Chuck enjoys piano, mountain biking, boating and skiing -- in that order.

    Warning: do not buy him a drink when there is a piano nearby.

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